Interview with Cathy Pellow of Refused TV
MVP: It is October 10th and we are speaking with Cathy Pellow from Refused TV in Los Angeles, CA. Curious Cathy, how long Refused TV has been on the air and what prompted you to start this program?
Cathy Pellow: I started the show in 2001, it started out really more of a hobby, I thought " hell I’d love to program a good video show". Also because, I make music videos for a living and I love music and I missed seeing videos that once were a real artform. I grew up on MTV and became exposed to new music via that channel and new visuals, creative work, etc. I saw great directors come out of there I have a teenage daughter and I felt sad that her generation wasn’t gonna see that, these kids didn’t know cool videos existed, they only saw the same kind of videos over and over again of only a few artists, this is why the whole interest for them has been lost in music videos.. So I decided I’d make my own show to show that there’s a lot of cool stuff still out there and great new music that just doesn't have the marketing money behind it to get a spot in the 'big 10'.
MVP: It seems as though with Refused TV just like when we were growing up and we’d stay up to watch or tape 120 Minutes. It seems like Refused TV is very much like appointment TV, people are gonna tune in because they know they’re gonna see videos they won’t see anywhere else.
CP: Yes definitely, we also don’t repeat any videos for a length of six weeks. So you know that if you watch it you’re not gonna see the same video over and over again. You watch it four weeks in a row you will never see the same video, so you’re gonna see 60 different videos that month that more than likely haven’t been getting played enough or at all on the other channels. You will find out about bands on each show you have never heard of. So it’s definitely worth tuning in and a lot of people like to Tivo it, myself included.
MVP: It seems as though your hosts, the bands that you get to appear on the program are great, you seem to catch all bands either before they get big or move to the next level.
CP: Yeah, one of my favorite things and something that I think that I’m quite good at is forecasting what's next in music, I genuinely love music so I stay on top of what is going on and I definitely have a knack for finding out about the bands before everyone else, well at least everyone in the mainstream media. What's funny about that though is a ton of people do know these bands and they’re like “Oh, my god!” you have The Morning After Girls and you had The Flatliners on or whatever. The major labels may have never heard of these bands but all the fans are like “Wow, you just turned me on to some great bands and you played some bands I didn't even realize had a video.
It also makes me happy to help deserving bands, these bands are all very responsive to how I honor them over the already established acts.
MVP: You are on broadcast TV in L.A., is that a difficult coup to pull off since most regional programming is on cable?
CP: No, it’s not difficult if you can pay for it. The show is on leased access through KJLA./ LATV. This is by choice because it makes it available in every single household even if you don’t have cable and it’s on both Direct and Dish satellite and carried on every single cable provider in all of Los Angeles, Ventura, Orange, Riverside, Kern, Inyo and San Bernadino Counties.That gives the show a reach of 5 million homes and reaches people who can't afford cable, which I really think is great. I've also just done a licensing deal on Refused TV it will be one of the main music sections of a new "On Demand" free channel called RIPE TV starting October 29th. Thiswill put Refused TV on Nationwide to all Comcast Cable subscribers and it will be available 7 days a week 24 hours a day.
MVP: So, when we tune in next Monday night in California who are some of the bands we can expect to see??
CP: This Monday night Whole Wheat Bread is hosting and it’s a lot of punk videos like Bad Religion, Rancid, KillRadio, Dead 60’s, The Clash, Flogging Molly, Oneword Solution - who are not even signed —you know more in that vein. Whereas the week after that Diamond Knights is hosting so it’s gonna be a lot more like Spoon, Moving Units, She Wants Revenge, Autolux it will be more hipster oriented programming. But I like to mix it up and I’m actually introducing a new show called Refused Noise and I’m gonna roll it out initially as the last 15-20 minutes of Refused TV and it’s just gonna be hardcore, real punk and metal and then we’ll see how it goes. It will kind of be separated so the first 40 minutes of Refused TV will be the regular kind of stuff I play and then it will have it’s own little section like “And now it’s time to get noisy” and it will just be 4 really hard core videos or old school punk like Sick Of It All, the Cro Mags, Motorhead, and newcomers like As I Lay Dying and those kinds of bands will go in that section, ‘cause the kids like that loud stuff..
MVP: I see, as someone who makes music videos would you agree with the statement that it isn’t necessary to spend 5 figures anymore on a video because of digital film-making?
CP:Unfortunately, for all of us Production companies and Directors the cat has been let out of the bag about that. Why people aren’t spending money on videos anymore is a combination of yes technology, people are now aware of the fact that you’ve got these kids who are making fantastic videos for $10,000 or less and it’s like why would we go and spend $200,000 anymore but it also has to do with no outlets, I mean really when everyone’s honest with themselves, Viacom playing your video sells records, you know, it is undeniable. If you can get in rotation you will sell records, you will sell tickets. It is very coveted to get that airplay, but it’s so rare. The likelihood of a band to get on those channels is so few and far between that it just does not make sense to spend that kind of money on what could be just a paperweight a few weeks later. You will see most music video production companies go out of business and you'll see the commercial companies start to phase out those divisions. But then it will have a resurgence once the precedent that Universal is starting takes hold which is " videos are for sale, not for free" that's when they will start to make big videos again, when it is financially warranted to spend money because they can make money.
MVP: So what about your thoughts on FUSE.
CP:I don’t really have any thoughts on FUSE, like MTV it started off a lot cooler than it is now. I think the main problem is music videos will always get lesser ratings than real shows, kids don’t tune in to watch these blocks of videos anymore for a very simple reason that everyone’s been overlooking and this is because the programmers play the same video everyday over and over, why do I need to watch a block of Steven’s Untitled Rock Show when I already know which ten artists they are going to play: MCR, Taking Back Sunday, The Used, Senses Fail, Greenday and so on. They are gonna play the same 10 bands over and over with the occasional 'newbie' thrown in for good measure. They’re gonna make two original programs a week and there will be a playlist of 10 bands all the same as last week and then repeat those two hours 15 times. I Tivo that show every episode just to see if they will ever open up the playlist but they don't. I’ve seen the same Hawthorne Heights video a billion times. So of course I’m sick of watching videos there is nothing new about them, they are not turning me onto new music so why would kids be into it either? Not to mention the 8 minutes of commercials per video played.
MVP:Let’s talk about regional video, there’s been a proliferation of new regional video programs over the last couple of years and it seems as though every market has at least one music video show on cable where true music lovers can tune in and see the videos they may not see elsewhere. Do you have any predictions as to the future of regional video? How will the Universal Decision to charge $7500 per year to be serviced effect them?
CP: Well a lot of regional shows started for the same reason I started. People who were fed up with not being able to see some variety in music videos. So I think that the 'true music loving' programmers will be less effected by the Universal decision right now because they don't rely on the TOP 40 stuff anyway. Where you'll see that decision hurt the most right away is Country, Mainstream Hip Hop shows and TOP 40 shows. They need the Universal Music groups videos but they can't afford to pay the $7500 to be serviced.
I do predict that we are only about a year away from all the major music groups pulling the rights to play their videos on TV across the board, they have already pulled all free Internet rights. So when that bomb drops most regional shows will suffer and or cease to exist. But that is what the Universal decision is hoping for, you see it's not really about the costs of sending out videos. We all know they could revamp their system in a minute and save that money easily. It's about removing the ability to see music videos for FREE anywhere. If the only way an Eminem fan can see his video is to pay to download it or buy the DVD extra or enhanced CD then they will and that will generate revenue that the labels desperately need to start getting a peice of. We can sit and be pissed about Majors doing this but honestly people don't buy records anymore so they have every right to find other revenue streams to justifty what they spend on signing and maintaining aritsts on their roster. 5 years from now people will say ' remember when you could watch videos for free and they played them on TV" like it is some kind of ancient history. I'm already in the works on a new format of Refused TV that addresses this new concept and will help labels with the whole 'pay to download' video concept. So Universal - Call me - we'll do lunch.
MVP:How dow you thing the whole IPOD and the possibility of I Video going to effect the industry.
CP: iTunes has changed everything. It’s like wow we sell 1 million Gwen Stefani singles for a dollar and we didn’t have to package it, ship it, or spend as much to market it, it’s such a different kind of thing and with it they are programming a new generation of consumers to purchase music. That's why Major Labels will want to remove the option of seeing music videos for Free from the marketplace because this same generation will not think twice about paying to have their favorite artists videos on their IVIDEO Pod which they can plug into any TV and have a good old time with the new "Video Shuffle". Look at Ringtones, they were Never Free so no one gripes about paying the $2.50 or more for 15 seconds of a song for their phones, once music videos are no longer FREE people will get used to it and labels will recoup the money they spend on these productions and make money.
MVP: What happens to the new bands people won't find out about, the new artists that people wouldn't pay to download their videos because they don't know about them?
CP: That is the problem all the Majors need to start addressing! What happens to NEW and Developing artists with this model? Well that is what my next show is all about and this again is where the internet will take over as well. This is why FOX bought Myspace because they know the need to promote these new 'music videos' for sale is coming. They also know that the new generation doesn’t like TV, they like the internet better so they have no problem using this as their source of information to find out about music related product.
Let's use My Chemical Romance as model. I bet Warner Brothers could have easily made a million dollars on “Ghost of You” by My Chemical Romance if they said the only place you can get this video is if you pay to download it, you would’ve had tons of people download that video in the course of a few weeks. Now, let’s pretend My Chemical Romance is starting today they would never get to where they could be in that position, if they had not been able to exploit their first videos on MTV and regional shows first. They started on regional shows and underground with a dirty low budget video first and the dirty video got a little play and kids responded, so FUSE and MTV basically said go make a real video for this band and we’ll play them, we like this band and that is why they made “I’m Not Okay” with Mark Webb the second version. It was HUGe and the rest is history.
MVP: What Do You think with regards to being a production company that makes music videos for a living about all these changes?
CP: It’s gonna be interesting as a production company because bands and labels are gonna have to start getting a whole lot more creative. My forecast is that directors are going to become stars again because people are going to start considering things like, who directed it, who stars in it, the look and production value of the video, etc. I mean, I'd pay for a Gondry video sight unseen, but I’m not gonna pay for some dude I’ve never heard of directing it. People are gonna start looking at which videos are the ones that are cool and worth having and their gonna start applying the same criteria as when they choose what movies to go see. Oh it’s the new Tarantino movie, oh it’s the new whatever, directors are gonna start wielding that power again because if they’re gonna want to charge for videos, then the labels better make them bigger and better. The big budgets are going to come back because one, they are going to be able to be offset by the fact that people will buy the videos and two, because it is going to become a fierce competition, why am I going to download some lofi video of a Rapper when I can get the R. Kelly 8 part soap opera series video that I heard is bangin’ and has famous people in it and is a big Epic production. I'll predict right now that artists like Kanye West and those guys will come out with friggin’ movies to accompany their CD's. It’s already happening, look at the new videos from Common, My Chemical Romance, Green Day leading the way with the movie style videos. The new Fall Out Boy video and Thrice's new videos are all in this 'mini movie' style and they are so much more interesting. It is justifiable to own the videos for these bands whereas you are not going to download the low budget performance video of a band playing in a garage or you know in some basement shot on DV. So people are going to have to start raising the bar because consumers aren’t gonna pay to just see a badly shot performance video.
MVP:I guess 5 or 7 years ago bands would make videos for the sole purpose of trying to get it on MTV and knowing that they could also put it up on their website but now it seems as though there’s many new and different reasons to make a video. Do you think there’s more avenues and more outlets for them to be seen now that the internet is the new way?
CP: : No, I think more bands are making videos because 5-7 years ago a little band just couldn't afford to make a video, now they can because like we said before budgets now can be under 10k and still have a chance to be okay. So for Indy bands and even unsigned bands they make little videos as their own marketing tools, they can post it all over the web some regional shows might play it, etc. But overall, these little 'non money behind them bands' will never get the Viacom exposure they seek. But if you weigh the costs of them spending $5k to make a video it's not that great a loss if they can only use it in a limited way. Soon, Videos are gonna have to start to be advertised like records in order for people to know about them. So once again Viacom will be a winner even in the new equation. Because labels will now have to pay to advertise their videos, instead of giving the videos for free to shows to play them, they will be buying ad space to promote them instead.
MVP: Couldn’t it be argued that with major labels starting to put the pressure on regional programmers that we’ve opened a wide gap for independent artists to be seen more?
CP: Yeah for sure, but at the same time as a programmer I get really bummed when I get videos from bands that I like and they send me videos that suck, they’re like $8 videos and they’re really terrible and they’re boring to watch. I can’t sustain an audience and turn them onto new music when the visuals and the videos are just such non events. There are a lot of bands that I really like that I would play a lot more if their video had shown any kind of effort or professionalism. I sit and watch my show every Monday night in an effort to see what’s boring and what stands out in the hour. There are some bands I really like that I look at their video and I have to say it actually does them a disservice because this is the first exposure this band has to an audience and this video is not gonna make people run out and want to see this band now. And I think that’s something a lot of people really need to start addressing. Managers and labels need to say you know sometimes having a shitty video is not better than having no video. Just like a good video can turn you onto a band a bad one can turn you off to them.
MVP: I would agree with that
CP: There’s certain bands whose songs are being brought down by their video. A lot of these artsy, hipster bands are doing really pretentious, boring videos that don’t really do anything for them. There is a way to be clever and have cool visuals without being that boring. It's like they think they are being 'clever' by having the "anti-video" You know having a girl walking in a field and whatever, but if your making a video in the first place stop kidding yourself, your making it to promote your band and music so for god sakes don't put me to sleep with it. I've actually experienced being turned off to see a band's live show because their video was so dull I assume that their show will be as well. In fact all these performance videos I think are hurting Touring. Kids feel like I've already seen that band live in their video, I don't need to go to the show.
MVP: Maybe those bands should call Refused TV the production company if they want a good video.
CP:Yea, great more $15k buget phone calls, just what I dream of. Damn, it's a nightmare trying to run a business that makes videos and at the same time I'm asked over and over again to do it for what ends up being Free. We only take these kinds of jobs now if we absolutely LOVE the music it's all about the band, nothing else.
MVP: I’m curious how you think this International Music Feed, Universal’s new music channel, is going to affect the music video landscape.
CP: Until it is available in more homes, enough so that people actually know it exists, it is not really having any impact that I can see. Their playlists are also not very interesting. Again, Universal - call me, we'll do lunch.
MVP: Do you think Universal’s decision to start asking programmers to pay for content has anything to do with the new IMF channel?
CP:I think that Universal now asking to pay for music videos and the IMF channel are all related in the fact that they are trying to take control of their own companies assets. labels are saying why are we making these expensive productions to market music and then give them away all for free for some other company to make the profit. I can't really comment on IMF though because I have never seen their programming. I have checked out their website and was not really impressed with their playlists, definitely didn't make me feel like I was missing out by not having Dish.
MVP: Curious if you have any comments on the new distribution plans, how long do you think it’ll be before music videos don’t get sent to programmers via Mini DV or Beta and they’re just sent via the computer?
CP: I don’t think that’s ever gonna happen. Even though it really could and should. One of the biggest problems with major labels is their such dinosaurs sometimes.They are so out of touch internally with technology and what goes on, I get my videos overnighted most of the time instead of mailed it’s such a waste. Not to mention I get a ton of videos I would never play, it’s like why didn’t their video promotions person just call me or send me an e-mail and say these are the five videos that I’m working right now are any of them ones you want. Don’t waste the money sending me videos I can tell you upfront I wouldn't program. The majors video promotions departments are pathetic overall, I have never gotten a call from a major label to follow-up to see if I’m gonna play something, never once in four years of programming two national music video shows Refused TV and Split for Fox's FUEL TV. Not one major label has ever called me and said “Hey did you get the video that I sent you, are you gonna play it?” Not once, there is something terribly wrong with that.
MVP: And you’ve called the major labels and asked for something and you’ve been ignored.
CP: Yes in the first four years of the shows existence. The people in charge of video promotions at major labels would not even acknowledge the show, because I didn't report to CVC and that was because that rag was a peice of crap that told me I couldn't report my shows playlists because the fact that I also owned a music video production company was a conflict of interest. So they wouldn't put my playlists in even though I had two very important shows running. They went out of business - do the math. Thankfully, Steve Gottleib who used to work there started a much better resource online called VIDEO STATIC. I like it's format so much better - Shout out to Steve! everyone should get his newsletter sign up for it at www.videostatic.com
MVP: As someone who was involved as a manager of a very new band that got signed to a major label - Columbia right out of the box and who very much needed underground marketing, etc. you got to see the procedures and mindset firsthand. Any comments or thoughts that might help other bands as they move forward in their careers?
CP: Oh my god, I could go on for days about how sad the situation of 'new' bands being signed to a major is. I really just want to know WHY are majors bothering to sign bands that they aren't willing to invest the first two years of development on in the first place. There are just so many errors that take place in the major system with regard to development, but I 'm not going to bash Columbia's efforts I will just say if your not a "RADIO" band majors can really be a disadvantage to sign with. If you are then only try to be on a major.
MVP: Any closing thoughts, there’s been a lot of negative envisionment here, I’m just curious if there are any bright spots in the future for music videos and for the folks who program them?
CP:I don’t know how bright a future regional music video programming has in the long run especially if your not already programming the more alternative non mainstream videos. I know that Refused TV the show, as it is now, a straight forward hour of good music videos will not be the same show a year from now. There is much to see in what is to come. My advice is take advantage of the fact that it is only Universal right now that has requested money for videos and play the shit out of everyone elses stuff. And To the labels I say this "Start Advertising and helping support these shows" we can't stay on the air helping you promote your artists without some acknowledgement, none of us are getting rich from these things but we need some income to offset our costs. So if your sending us videos it's because you know it helps, so start advertising with us too.
To Bands and Managers I say " Stop making shitty videos that make our shows look crappy and low budget". Either do it right or save the $10 your spending.
MVP:To wrap up, can you give us the names of 2 or 3 videos you’ve seen this year that actually come across great and the director nailed it and they can be from Refused TV.?
CP: I gotta tell you the video for the new Fall Out Boy video "Dance Dance" which isn’t even on the air yet I just know about it because we did the making of for MTV2, is going to be the biggest video in the next 6 months. It’s hysterical, it’s endearing and it totally makes you love the song. That’s what a video is supposed to do. The My Chemical Romance videos that Mark Webb did for “I’m Not Okay” , "Helena" and now "The Ghost of You" are all great examples of making a video that made you connect to the song and made you remember the song. When I hear those songs I see the video in my brain. That’s a successful video and here I am the queen of underground culture and two huge budget kind of big pop rock bands are the ones sticking in my mind. The new Common video that I just saw was great. I love these movie type videos. I want videos to become masterpieces again, that’s when they were fun to watch. I’m sick of ghetto non-creative videos and they’re non-creative because people don’t have the ability to get inspired, how many times can you get inspired with this $15,000 budget and the band wants to be in video the whole damn time performing. It’s hard to keep it original. I don’t like to play those videos on my show. In the Low budget arena I really like the new Mindless Self Indulgence video it has NO band performance and it was very cheap but it's great and makes me want to go see them live to see what they are like. My all time Favorite video this year though has to be The Streets "Blinded by the Light" that was just awesome. Overall, I have really noticed that I’m not getting the great kind of videos I used to get like The Avalanchesn "Frontier Pyschiatrist" and just stuff that was out there but in a cool way. Sadly, I think a lot of it has to do with the music that is in style right now, that "Teen Scream" stuff it is really dull. It’s all these little screamo bands that are making the same video over and over again and they all suck and lack any real creative vision.
MVP: What will the double zeros be remembered for? You know the 90s will be remembered for Nirvana, what will this new decade be remembered for?
CP: You know that is a really interesting question. It is so funny because I was talking to the band I manage about this. We were sitting and talking about music in general and I’m just like “What is everyone into right now? What is it called? There is nothing. There is no signature band. There is no band that’s rising to the top that’s blowing everyone’s mind. So I would have to say "Teen scream" music is what 2000 is. It is my new label to the new useless Genre I just don't get.
.